Original Sound by Default

[PRM-KS]

Hello - just updated zoom today (11.02.22) and it seems like Original Sound needs to be turned on manually every time now.

For the last few months it was already always on once I did it initially ... and this was so amazing. No more messing up meetings where I share audio or workshops where we're working on music things and I just know its going to sound amazing from the beginning without the extra awkward "wait let me turn on original sound".

Is there a way for me to turn original sound on and let it be that way forever on the newest version? If not...can this become a thing please?

[bpmusic]

Just want to add my voice to the chorus as a paying customer who is baffled at the complete disregard for their customers that Zoom is showing here.    Jennife's dismissive response that Zoom does not care what music teachers require is mind-blowingly bad customer service.  

Anyone found a good alternative? My plan still has several months left on it but I'd like to start trying the alternatives and see what works best.  WebEx looks pretty good but I'm curious about some of the options geared towards musicians. 

[Rayco]

Hi BP, 

I've been trying out WEBEX and it seems to be more suited, less bells and whistles but that will all save Processing overheads. 

Can see more people especially tutors changing over to Webex. 

[bpmusic]

Thanks, Rayco.  I'm going to trial it with a couple students and see how it goes.  

Any comments on how it deals with sharing sheet music, audio recordings etc? 

[YaBoiB]

Hello, All in this thread, 

 I have submitted a feature request to allow the account admin to choose how Original Sound is used on your accounts. So, I am asking the devs of Zoom to add a switch in the account settings for Original Sound to be toggled off or on. I am still determining how the UI will look or work on this, but I will follow this case and the ticket that I submitted to the Engineering team for Zoom and let you all know of the progress as often as possible. 

Please know that I volunteer my time to the Community, so I cannot always check every day, but I promise to check on progress as often as possible. 

Thank you to all of the folks in this thread for your understanding and patience while we work to deliver happiness. 

Regards,

Brandon 

[bpmusic]

Thanks, Brandon.  You seem to get it and I'm sure we all appreciate your efforts here.  Honestly, I'd rather not switch but this feature makes it particularly difficult since not every student is very technically savvy and the current unchangeable default means that their instrument sound is suppressed.  Just for clarity for the devs, I'd like to reiterate exactly what the problem is from my perspective (since there is potentially more than one way to solve the problem), and some possible solutions.  Please share this with the development team, perhaps one of these solutions will be acceptable or spur a solution I haven't thought of.

• The current noise suppression algorithm blocks the sound from a musical instrument if "original sound" is not on.

• The teacher can set their own sound for every session easily enough.  It's a pain to do repeatedly, multiple times a day, but if this was the only issue it would be a mere annoyance and not a deal-breaker.

• The teacher has no way to address (or even see) the settings of a student's sound, and the current default every meeting is that the student's settings are entirely unusable due to the the student's instrument being inaudible.  Many students (particularly children and older adults) are not particularly tech savvy and have difficulty with this. Since students are paying for a teacher's time, time spent troubleshooting the platform is a deal-breaker. 

• If the student is using a phone or ipad to access the service, the correct options are difficult to access, if they can be accessed at all.

From my perspective, there are a number of possible solutions here.

1. Just change it back to how things were before, so that meetings start by default with the same settings used in the previous meeting (i.e., default = previous meeting)

2. Give the meeting host an option to "enable original sound" for all or selected participants (i.e., default is set by host)

3. If a user has "original sound for musicians" selected in their audio profile, require they choose to enable/disable original sound for each new meeting (i.e., there is no "default" at all if this radio button is selected in the audio profile - a choice must be made to enter a meeting). 

4. Add an additional option in the audio profile to "start all meetings with original sound" (default behavior is set by the user in their own settings).

I can see how there would be difficulties or trade-offs with all of these, but it seems like one of these solutions should be acceptable to the development team.  

Obviously #1 is easy to implement since the program already behaved this way previously and they changed it - but it's understandable that for some other users this might be an undesirable outcome.  So pros are quick/easy implementation, cons are that it might annoy a different subset of users. 

#2 seems potentially challenging to implement (not knowing your software architecture), assuming that settings are controlled locally I expect it is a substantial change to allow it to be set remotely.  Also might be regarded as a security concern.  

#3 seems like possibly the best compromise in implementation.  It wouldn't affect users at all if they don't first choose "original sound" in their audio profile; it would only affect users that are interested in that functionality and would be a helpful reminder and make it easier (users don't have to figure out how to change the setting since they are prompted)

#4 would be good for people who mostly use original sound, but possibly less so for people who use zoom a lot for different reasons and only want original sound sometimes.  It would be a nice option to have for those that use original sound most of the time, and is presumably not a huge implementation task (since the settings options are frequently changed and this indeed was possible before).

[YaBoiB]

Hello @bpmusic, 

 Thank you for your feedback. First, let me say that the developers do not monitor this channel because obviously we want them writing code and not monitoring a community channel. That said, I have linked this thread to the submission so that they can see the frustrations that folks on this thread are having with the change for this component. 

As far as going back to the way things were in the past, I believe that that ship has sailed. As I have stated previously, a majority of our customer base has asked for the setting to be the way that it is today. 

What I am asking the development team for is a way that an Admin of the account can choose in the account settings to determine if the original sound should be off or on by default for every meeting. The reason why I think that this is the best bet for this enhancement is because: 

• An admin can go into the account setting and turn this off or on for everyone on the account. 
• An admin can choose a group level setting that would allow a subset of users to have this on by default for every meeting on their account. 
• If this is toggled on by default, users without technical savvy will not have the ability to turn this off (if locked in the settings) or have the ability to determine how they want this setting on their personal settings (if unlocked). 
• A single user can choose on or off by default in the account settings which would mimic their personal settings. 

IMO this is the only possible way to make everyone happy. If you or someone else can think of another way "other than going back to the way it was" I am all ears. 

I have been working with admins for four + years, so I do consider myself an SME when it comes to this product. That said, I do not know everything and I am completely open to more suggestions. 

Again, the Engineers do have the link to this thread in the submission ticket and I have pointed out the urgency for a quick solution to this issue for the music community. 

Thank you so much for your suggestions and feedback, we do not take that for granted. I hope that you all know that. We (Zoom) has a lot of building to do on this platform and we have to put priorities based on customer needs. Of course we would like to make all of you priority number one, but you should all know that this is not a feasible action in the software world. We try to build and change and fix as fast as we can, and some things just take time to be resolved. 

I hope that you all understand and can be patient while I wait for feedback from the Developers. 

I have set up a method for me to check on the ticket everyday, so I do promise that as soon as I hear something. I will pass that information on to you. 

My hope is that the team will see the concern for this component and develop a switch that will allow "original sound" to be toggled on or off by default. I do not write code, I just support it, so I do not know how difficult or how "heavy of a lift" this is for my team. But, I will know in the coming weeks. 

Thanks, 

Brandon 

[bpmusic]

Thanks Brandon.   I get that the devs are not following threads here, but in the interest of finding good solutions I was requesting that you pass the information on.

I understand that solution #1 (going back) is off the table.  I proposed three other solutions.  It sounds like you are suggesting a variation on my solution #4 if I understand you correctly. 

By an "Admin", are you referring to multiple users on one account having their settings controlled by one administrative user?
If so, I'm not sure that is particularly relevant.

It would be a partial solution, and certainly better than it is now.   Effectively this is a variation on my solution #4 above, but with extra steps pertaining to multiple users (which certainly may be a necessary parrt of the implementation, I understand).  This would be a welcome improvement, for sure, but doesn't fully solve the problem.  

Generally, you have two parties here: a teacher and a student.  My understanding is that each generally has their own account.  They are not sharing an account, so admin settings would be mostly irrelevant, unless the "admin" is able to set default behavior for all meeting participants rather than just those on one account  (this would be my solution #2).  

The primary problem we are dealing with is that it is diffiicult for our clients (the students) to consistently access the appropriate settings in their own accounts and no way for them to enable the correct default behavior.  Generally we (the teachers) have sufficient technical expertise to enable the correct settings in our own accounts (though it is a minor annoyance to have to reset the option at the start of every single meeting).  The difficulty is that we end up trying to do remote troubleshooting for our clients.

---

IMO this is the only possible way to make everyone happy. If you or someone else can think of another way "other than going back to the way it was" I am all ears. 

---

I did make another suggestion that you didn't address: #3 

I suggest that the devs seriously consider simply either requiring a choice at the start of meetings (for users who have enabled original sound in their audio profile) or making that an option in the audio profile, as one of three options:

a) default original sound off for new meetings
b) default original sound on for new meetings

c) request user preference for original sound upon entering/starting a meeting

I understand that many software developers are allergic to the perceived inelegance or requiring a user choice and would prefer to have a default.  The problem here from a UX standpoint is that Zoom wishes to be a solution for a wide swath of professions many of whom have different needs, so there is no universal default that works without causing significant problems from some substantial set of users.    In this case, requiring a choice from those who have opted-in by indicating that they sometimes need original audio makes the most sense. 

In this case, the vast majority of users would not ever encounter this behavior, as they would have their audio profile set to the default (Zoom optimized audio), which would not require any additional action by the user.  What would make sense would be that if the user has already enabled "original sound" in their audio profile, one can presume that they would welcome a dialog at the start of the meeting to determine whether it is desired.  It is an "opt-in" situation that would not interfere in any way with non-music users.  This seems to me the best possible outcome for all involved.  

[bpmusic]

Edit to add: even a single user is likely to be using zoom both for business meetings and music lessons, so even for a single user there is a downside to a default vs. a forced choice.

[doremiteacher]

Ooooh! BPMusic, I really like your "OPTION 3."  That is an elegant solution to a HUGE problem (namely the student on the other side of the meeting being confused about what to do.)  GREAT idea!

[YaBoiB]

Hello @bpmusic, 

 I addressed option 3 but did it in the submission ticket to the developers. The way it works on my end is that I suggest a design variation to the Engineering team (developers, software engineers, product engineers) they in turn determine if that is a feasible option (can they build it) (will it break something else) (security of the platform) things of that nature. Then it will go on our roadmap > get approved by leadership (executive and management) > gets implemented into a later version.  Right now it is in the getting approved stage. 

So believe me when I say that your voices are being heard on this subject. As soon as I know that this has been approved I will pass down what version of the Zoom Desktop client it will be on. 

Please let me know if you have any further questions. 

Thanks, 

Brandon 

[bpmusic]

thanks, Brandon, appreciate all the follow up and effort you've been putting into this issue. 

[Davey]

Thank you Brandon 🙏

[Emilie_R]

Hi Brandon,

Can we *please* have Original Sound added to the Linux versions? Thank you!

[YaBoiB]

Hello @Emilie_R, 

 I am not sure, but I have reached out to the internal Zoom team that develops these versions to see if they can offer any insight into your question. I will reach out to you as soon as I have more context. 

Thanks,

[YaBoiB]

@Emilie_R, 

 We are working on supporting Original Sound for the Linux Client in version 6.0.0. You should see this in the release notes when they are published. 

Let me know if you have any further questions about this functionality. 

Regards,

[doremiteacher]

Thank you, Brandon!

[YaBoiB]

Hello All, 

 I spoke to the Zoom team on Friday, and we have a feature being developed now that should be ready in the fall; we believe this feature will resolve the Original Sound concerns you have spoken so passionately about. I cannot divulge the information about the component yet, but I will point everyone to the public documentation once it is published. Until that time, please be patient with us while our developers work to deliver happiness to all Zoom Communities. 

Kind regards,

Brandon

[doremiteacher]

Thank you, Brandon.  I anxiously await the solution!

[YaBoiB]

Hello All, 

Could you disregard the previous steps posted in this thread? Zoom is working on an advanced way to configure the setting for Original Sound and will post it here soon.

Regards,

Brandon 

[Khirschmann]

Brandon,

Honestly, each time you post something like this it makes me wonder whether you truly understand what our issue is.  The fact that you have to toggle the button in the meeting to turn Original Sound on IS THE PROBLEM!!!  This is not a workaround.  We can turn on the Original Sound option in preferences.  That's not the issue.  The issue is that once you activate Original Sound for meetings, you still have to manually click this button that you posted a picture of in the meeting EVERY TIME.  So, though we appreciate the time you are putting into this.  I don't know if you get what we're saying.

[bpmusic]

Thanks, Brandon.  I and I'm sure many others really appreciate all the effort you've put into this.  I am looking forward to whatever the fix is that your devs are working on; though I tend to agree with Rayco that including us users earlier in the process is more likely to result in an effective solution and waste less development time.    Khirschman's exasperated response could perhaps be a bit more nuanced, but he makes a good point - it's not 100% clear that you and the devs really understand our complaint, which could be improved by a more open communication process.  I get that you're volunteering here and it's not your fault there really isn't a dedicated process for community feedback/suggestions/requests, and you're doing what you can.  

I've been taught in effective communcation courses that the first thing to do is try to repeat back to people what you understand them to be saying.  This always feels redundant (because we always tend to think what we understand someone to be saying is what they are actually trying to communicate) but in practice tends to reveal significant gaps in communication.  

Perhaps you could try to summarize for us (as if you were explaining it to the devs, perhaps) what you understand our complaint to be? This might go a long way to everyone feeling heard on this issue.  

[Khirschmann]

Pardon me, but I believe my "exasperated" response is well warranted after we've been communicating this issue for several months and yet Brandon still doesn't seem to get it.  Next time why don't you just say what you want to say without commenting on the tone or content of other people's posts.

[bpmusic]

It sounds like you feel like you were criticized and that I was suggested your response was unwarranted.  This was not my meaning or intention at all; my apologies if my comment came across that way.

I was not at all suggesting that your exasperation is unwarranted; in fact I think we all share it.   
I even explicitly said that you have a good point.  The reason I brought up your comment was to underline that point and attempt to use that to help get us toward a solution, something that seems to me well within the bounds of proper use of a public discussion forum.    This was not in any way intended as a criticism of you or an attempt to invalidate your frustration (which again, I think we all share).     

We are all on the same side here, trying to solve a problem with the software.

[doremiteacher]

I think that BPMusic is correct.  I do not think you and the dev team understand the problem.

The PROBLEM is that we have to click the button in the top corner at the beginning of every meeting.   

How can the WORKAROUND be to click the button in the top corner at the beginning of every meeting. 

???????????

Here is my situation:

I have 22 classes per week .

In every class, we have ZOOM going {for anyone who needs to join online.}

Every ZOOM meeting is recorded so that the attendees can practice with it every day.  

If I forget to turn on original sound, the recording is useless.  If someone is joining online, they remind me (because they can not hear the music), but if no one is there.....well.....I forget about 30% of the time - rendering 30% of my recordings useless.

Do you see the problem?

BPMusic's idea (request user preference for original sound upon entering/starting a meeting) was AWESOME!   A pop up would show upon starting/entering a meeting that says something like:

"WOULD YOU LIKE TO TURN ON ORIGINAL SOUND FOR MUSIC?  {yes}  {no}"

This would ONLY happen for people who had gone into advanced audio settings and enabled it to be so.

For me, this would happen for every class, and for anyone online, it would happen when they enter the meeting. 

Am I making sense? 

I hope so {fingers crossed}

Thank you very much!

[Rayco]

So your development team like to do things 'Their Way', maybe thats why you have so many problems. 

If you sent out some Beta versions to testers they could give you valuable Feedback. 

[operator]

Thank you Brandon for continuing to advocate for this.  We really appreciate your efforts.   I'm sure some of the folks on this thread would gladly volunteer as Beta testers. Just put out a request!

[YaBoiB]

Hello @operator, 

 I won't know if this is going to be an internal or external beta product until it is closer to being completed, but I will make sure that they know of your interest to Beta test. 

Thanks, 

Brandon

[YaBoiB]

Hi All, 

The team is compiling some video instructions that may be ready next week. I will point everyone to that thread once it is complete. Other than that. The Feature Request that I put in to allow an Admin of the account declare through account settings the default state of the OG Sound is gaining traction, and the team has another added functionality that they are developing in parallel as well to assist with OG Sound. That documentation will be published as it gets closer to release. 

Thanks, 

Brandon 

[Msteele]

Are these videos going to explain the Mass-Deploying install options to permanently lock Original Sound on as you posted yesterday before you edited your comment? I posted this info on this thread back in January. Here are the links for the instructions:
Windows PC's: https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/201362163-Mass-deployment-with-preconfigured-settings-for-...
MacOS: https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/115001799006-Mass-Deployment-with-Preconfigured-Settings-f...
I've been using this since December on a couple of my computers and it works fine. The only downside is you lose the option to turn off Original Sound if this were ever required due to a change in environment where there was some background noise and you required Zoom's noise reduction. The only way to have this option would be to reinstall the Zoom client. 
But this is not a solution for many of the users here involved with music instruction as they most likely would not have access to their students computers, and the process of installing the client with this method isn't exactly friendly to the causal computer user.  

[YaBoiB]

Hi @Msteele, 

 This thread has a lot of visibility now. I made sure of that. I am not on the team creating the videos; I am passing everything I know to you all. That has been my vow since I started working on this thread and that is what I will do until this issue is resolved. I do not quit. EVER!!

Kind regards,

Brandon

[Rayco]

Locking Original Sound ON, works, this is the solution I have used. But you cannot switch it off, ever.  

Zoom should not have created this problem for itself but removing the feature they had already built in. 

It's not like it was a brand new program, this feature was in Zoom right up to Version 5.11, which you can't even go back to as Zoom have disabled the use of older versions. 

[Music_Teach_JK]

@bpmusic , @YaBoiB , @doremiteacher 

Thanks for all the engagement on this topic so far.  
I'm a paid Zoom pro user for around 4 years now.  I teach a variety of students, including college students, adults, and children.  Many of my students are young children.  Often ages 5-7, or sometimes even younger than 5.

Lots of these students use mobile devices like iPads, iPhones, and Android phones to take their lessons.  Their parents are often unable to help provide tech support.  

The biggest problem is the inaccessibility of the mobile app settings DURING a meeting.  Before turning Original Sound on in a Zoom meeting, students must enable it from within the settings on the Zoom mobile app.   They cannot do that, because now they are in a Zoom meeting with their teacher, and the important setting they need to access has become inaccessible.

There is a way to get out of the meeting and into the Zoom mobile app settings while a meeting is already going, but it's not easy to get to.  It requires multiple button-pushes, including a click-and-drag, all which are poorly labeled.   First, the student touches the screen to make buttons appear.  Next, the student clicks the white arrow in the upper left of their screen.  It doesn't look like a clear arrow shape.  Next, the meeting window is now minimized and BLOCKING the button that will get pushed.  The student clicks and drags the meeting window out of the way.   They find the word "MORE" with three dots.  Then the word "Meetings" under the header "Settings."  Last, there's a toggle switch labeled, "Use Original Audio."   (Not 'Sound,' but 'Audio.')

Once all those steps are complete, then the student must return to the meeting screen by clicking on the minimized window and enlarging it, and drag their finger across the bottom of the screen to scroll to the "three dots" for "MORE" and then click on "Enable Original Sound."

If their parent isn't signed in to their Zoom account, and they joined the meeting as a signed-out guest, then it's even HARDER to find the settings once a meeting has started.  It took me several minutes before I figured out the hidden way to do it.  

Now, imagine a 5-year-old child has to follow these instructions verbally, and they aren't a good reader.  They also have to do this routine *EVERY WEEK* and their parents are paying for every minute wasted on these ridiculous steps.  There's no help from an adult on their end.  They just have to follow my verbal instructions and practice getting good at these wasteful clicks and drags.

The inconvenience of the TEACHER having to click "Original Sound: ON" at every meeting is insignificant.  

The developers spending time working on ways to help the teacher save one mouse click is completely stupid!

What's badly needed is a way to eliminate all the multiple steps that the **STUDENT** takes to access and enable Original Sound.

It should be made easy to access from within the meeting in as few clicks as possible, and with very clear labels.  No scrolling, dragging, navigating back and forth among multiple layers of menus, and having the label for the feature change from one menu to another!  ("SOUND" vs. "AUDIO")

I also don't want to hear what the "consensus" says from the "user base." 

I'm not interested in what the useability is like for corporate business office users.  They don't need to access any of these features.  Music Teachers do.

On the mobile app version of the software, just make the "Original Audio" toggle a one-step toggle button nested under the "More" button from within the meeting.  Don't add an extra step of enabling it from the inaccessible mobile app settings.  Don't make the user sign in to their account in order to access the feature.  It needs to be accessible even to users who are signed out and just joining a meeting from their mobile.

Think of making it as easy as possible for the 5-year-old children who are getting music lessons from teachers paid by the minute.  Think of the parents of those children relying on the teacher to use that time for music education rather than tech troubleshooting.  And think of the music teachers themselves who are paid professional subscribers of the Zoom platform.  

If the teachers are unhappy with the product, they will find another product to use, and go pay for it instead.

The reason I prefer Zoom is that I like the audio-sharing features.  That's what keeps me paying for it every month, rather than ending my subscription and paying for a competing service.

[YaBoiB]

Hello @Music_Teach_JK, 

 We are working on solutions now, we will update this thread when the solution is ready to be presented to the public. Thanks for your feedback. 

Regards,

Brandon

[fractalmars]

hi @YaBoiB , thank you for all the attention you've given this thread.
as a music teacher who does group classes w/ 10+ attendees, this is a huge pain point for me.

It is inevitable that 50% of my attendees forget to turn on original sound...

They struggle to find the setting each meeting... they turn it on in settings, but then fail to get the second toggle switch to actually turn it on.

We waste 3-5 minutes per person on this, and it's usually 5+ people, meaning I'm wasting up to 25minutes per 90min class on original sound issues.

I really hope the features your team are working on will help with this! I'm teaching 2x/week minimum, which means that I spend almost a hour per week in original sound exasperation. 

It seems like for the use cases others have described, if the meeting host can set it to be an "original sound required" meeting, that would solve the problem.

[Music_Teach_JK]

@fractalmars  Yes, a setting for "Original Sound Required" under meeting room settings (set up before the meeting starts,) would theoretically solve the issue.    However, the way it currently works, there is no possible way of enabling Original Sound for any user until after joining the meeting.   

This needs to change.   The Original Sound setting needs to be consolidated to a single toggle under audio settings, rather than the multiple toggles needed now.  And the toggle should be persistent between meetings, meaning it doesn't need to be set separately for each meeting. 

Very importantly, the setting needs to be easy to find during a joined meeting from a mobile device.   

Currently, the original Sound enabling process is so difficult on mobile, that many of my students are unable to do it, even when I patiently walk them through the process during the lesson.   They have to give up because it's so hard.

[Rayco]

Still NO ACTION at all from Zoom. 

Over a year now with thousands of people complaining about the change to Original Sound. 

And STILL a daily problem to all these people. 

In that period Zoom have issued 5 'Major' updates and dozens of minor updates.  Now on version 5.12.2 and the problem was reported on version 5.11.0 

It is OBVIOUS that the powers that be within ZOOM don't care at all about users, they are only throwing cheap fix gimmicks into Zoom to try and get even more sales. 

These gimmicks are no use to anyone, maybe people who are not actually trying to get a job of work done. 

Time to kick Zoom into touch and go over to the opposition, maybe they will look after the paying customers a bit better. 

[Rayco]

https://signup.webex.com/sign-up

[Rayco]

https://neat.no/

[YaBoiB]

Good Afternoon all, 

 It has been a while since I updated this thread, so I decided to do so today. The Zoom team is working on two options, and I am still determining what that will look like, but the teams have told me that once public documentation is ready, they will send it to me so that I can share it with you. We (Zoom) are still working on these solutions, so for now, I only have a little to share other than to tell you all that I have not forgotten about this thread, nor will I. Once I have more information, I promise you will be the first on my list to reach out to on this page/thread. 

I hope that everyone had a great Halloween last night. 

Kind regards,

Brandon

[Music_Teach_JK]

@YaBoiB 

Hi Brandon,

Thanks for the update.  It had been a while and I was wondering if anything was happening to improve this feature.  It continues to remain a problem for my students, especially the youngest.

I sincerely hope that whatever solution comes next will prioritize ease of use.  It's vital that any feature a student would have to access, must be easily accessed with the absolute minimum clicks on any menus or settings.  And it must be simple to access during the meeting, without having to change to a different menu screen.  The feature must be equally easy to use on all device types, including web browser, Mac, Windows, chromebooks, iOS, and Android.  

Any hint of an estimated time frame to expect the feature improvements would be greatly appreciated.  Are we thinking it will be a matter of weeks?  Months?  -- Keep in mind that we've already been patiently waiting **YEARS** for this feature to be improved.  It came out as a brand new feature in 2020, I believe.  Since then, all improvements to the feature just made it harder to use, not easier.

Patiently waiting,

@Music_Teach_JK